Three women of faith who have survived emotional and spiritual abuse share their experiences learning how to go from crawling to flying with the help of the private education and support group, Flying Free.
Please note: this was recorded in early 2019. Since that time the Flying Free program has developed and grown, now offering weekly coaching, a brand new private forum, and an expanding vault of expert workshops. Learn more and get on the waiting list: joinflyingfree.com
Hi. This is Natalie Hoffman of Flyingfreenow.com, and you’re listening to the Flying Free Podcast, a support resource for women of faith looking for hope and healing from hidden emotional and spiritual abuse.
NATALIE: Welcome to Episode 25 of the Flying Free Podcast. Today we have with us members of the private Flying Free Education and Support Group, which is a group I’ve been running for about two years now. There have been hundreds of women who have gone through it in that time, and it is opening back up again next week, June 28 to July 1. For four days, it will be open for new members. It won’t be opening up again until November of this year. [Since the recording of this podcast, the Flying Free Sisterhood group is now open for applications at any time.] If you or anyone you know is interested in finding out more about what this group has to offer, I encourage you to head over to this URL. It’s www.joinflyingfree.com. I’ll repeat that URL at the end of this podcast. I wanted to introduce you to these three members. They are Katya, Julianna, and Alaine. They are going to be sharing some of their personal experiences with Flying Free. Some of them have been with me for all two years. They have a lot of things they would like to share with you about their experiences in Flying Free. We’re going to start by asking these questions: When did you join Flying Free? Why? What were you needing at the time that you joined? Let’s start with Katya. Hello, Katya.
NATALIE: Thank you for being on the Flying Free Podcast.
KATYA: Thank you for having me. I joined December 30, 2018 to be exact. I joined because I was dying. I had left my abuser just nine months before that, and in those nine months I also ended up losing my church and most of my friends. I was in a really dark place, completely hopeless. I was isolated, lonely, heartbroken, confused, and with no one in my life who I could talk to about any of it. A therapist one hour a week doesn’t really count. I needed community. I was desperate for community. I had been seeing the emails about the Flying Free membership group for several months at this point, and it sounded amazing. But I just couldn’t afford the $20 a month.
Finally, on December 30, I opened another email and decided to read everything about it. When I finished, I knew that while I couldn’t afford to join, at this point I couldn’t afford not to join. I texted two friends who are solid, but not local friends. They had both told me multiple times, “Let us know if there is anything we can do for you from here.” So I did. I told them about the extremely dark place I was in and asked if they might be willing to sponsor me for a couple of months. I told them to take their time, to talk with their husbands, and that there was no rush to get back to me. It is hard enough to ask for help, so I wasn’t going to ask for an immediate answer. Within six minutes they had both replied saying, “Of course! Of course we’re going to do this for you. We’re going to cover a year total.” (They talked to each other and were each going to take six months.) “If you still need it beyond a year, we’re going to cover it for as long as you need.” I signed up that very night. That is why and how I joined.
NATALIE: That is fabulous! That’s a really good thing that I want to draw attention to. You aren’t the only one who has someone sponsoring them in the group. There’s a way now where someone or a few people coming together can get a whole year’s worth of membership for someone. They purchase a membership, and they get this coupon code to give to the woman who is going to be joining the group. That woman goes in and registers using that coupon code, and they get a whole year paid for. They also get a digital copy of my book “Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage” as well. That’s a new thing that we started the last time, maybe three months ago. Anyway, you joined before we had that implemented. That’s one thing I think is a great thing for people to know about. Can I ask you, and I will ask this question to everyone eventually, even though you didn’t pay the $20 a month, do you feel like that was a good value and that you’ve been getting a good bang for the buck?
KATYA: Oh, Lord! I would say it paid for itself in the first twenty-four hours. I’m not even kidding! Truly, I was three days in, and I was sold! Any one of the expert workshops, I think, is worth $20. The resources that you write, compile, and provide are definitely worth $20. The community really is, to use a cliché, priceless. So yes, you get so much bang for your buck or your friend’s buck.
NATALIE: Okay, we’re going to keep going with you a little bit. I wasn’t sure if I was going to have the different ladies chime in with the same answers, but let’s keep going with you. What was your first impression of Flying Free when you first joined the group? You’ve kind of covered that, but is there anything else you want to add?
KATYA: Yes, actually. I think I’ve told you before, I think at the retreat, that I’m pretty skeptical by nature. I can read a hundred glowing reviews of something and still think “Well, okay, it can’t be that great.” The skepticism totally carried over to Flying Free reviews. I read, “Flying Free has changed my life! It saved my life! I can’t imagine where I’d be without it!” You know, I read all of these and I thought, “All right. Too many five stars and I get some red flags shooting out.” After reading all the information (it’s not that the membership didn’t sound wonderful. I was still interested in joining) I thought, “Come on. These reviews are just a little over the top.” I kid you not, two days after joining I was ready to write my own review. Oh my goodness, this group really did save my life! It was that amazing.
This was a place where I wasn’t out of place. It was a place I didn’t constantly have to explain myself and justify my decisions. I keep thinking about something Brené Brown says, “Belonging is the opposite of fitting in.” All it took was ten minutes in the secret Facebook group to make me realize that I didn’t have to try to fit in here. I was welcomed just as I was. After a decade of trying to fit in and convince everyone on the outside world that all was well, even though I was dying, here I was surrounded by dozens of women who despise the act of fitting in as much as I did. This was a place where I could belong. My first impression was, “Oh my goodness, I’m home!”
NATALIE: That’s awesome. That’s your first impression, but you’ve stayed. You’re into month six I think now. Well, why would you stay? Why have you chosen to stay in the group? I know your fees have been covered, but even if they hadn’t been covered, do you feel like you would have wanted to continue to go on in the group? At any point have you felt like you finally got what you needed, and you could bow out now?
KATYA: Never! Right now I’m in a season where I haven’t done the work for a couple of months. (Shhh, don’t tell Natalie!) It’s a season. The first couple of months I was devouring the workshops and the material, and it’s a season of life. But it will also be there when things settle down a little, and I can do it at my own pace. The community, the kindness, and the compassion… there is such a gentle love in these groups. There’s not condemnation or judgment or even that much advice. No one is going to say “Leave him!” or “Don’t leave him!” They just listen to you, hear you where you are at, and walk with you wherever you go. When someone says “I’m trying reconciliation,” we rejoice and we pray for them. We pray for safety and for true healing. It’s not this weird man-bashing group. It’s been phenomenal community. The workshops provide so much validation. Hearing from a friend that you’re not crazy, it’s like, “Thanks, but you have to say that.” But hearing from an expert that you’re not crazy while getting these phenomenal insights from them is so practical and helpful. You have done a phenomenal job in covering everything: our own healing, mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical. All in all I’d say it’s a true community, brilliant education, and excellent resources. It has met every need in my life except actually making me dinner. Maybe you could work on that one. A meal delivery option?
NATALIE: Oh my goodness! One of the things I’ve noticed in the Facebook groups… there are five of them that we try to keep under a hundred in each group. There are probably forty to sixty people in each group right now. I’ve noticed that this caliber of women who are in there are not bossing anyone around or trying to tell people what they should or shouldn’t do, like you said. They are very respectful of everyone’s boundaries and encourage everyone to make their own adult decisions. Whatever you decide, we are going to be behind you, support you, and love you. We aren’t going to abandon you if you decide to do something that we don’t agree with. I love that part. That is something that these women bring to the table. I don’t know how that has happened.
Even this last weekend (and we’ll touch on this at the end of the podcast) we got together with fifty of them. The caliber of women in this group is just incredible! I feel so blessed, and I feel like this is a family of very safe people. I’ve been excited about that. Also, one of the other things you brought up was that you haven’t been able to do the homework, but I want to encourage you (and this is the grace I give to my own life), you can’t always do all of the homework. You get a lesson every three days. Some people have told me, “I just read through the lessons because that’s all I have time to do. I can’t do the journaling. I can’t always watch the videos. But I read the lessons and it’s like a shot of adrenaline that keeps me going for the next three days.” I just want to encourage you that it’s the bare minimum you can do and it’s super easy. You are still getting value for the money you are investing just by reading the email and perhaps watching the expert workshop that comes out that month and getting into the Facebook group and interacting with people when you need to.
KATYA: Yeah, absolutely!
NATALIE: Thank you so much, Katya. We’ll come back to you later. Alaine, thank you for joining us and welcome!
ALAINE: Thank you so much. It’s awesome to be here.
NATALIE: I’m going to ask those original questions again since we probably all forgot what they were. The original questions were: When did you join Flying Free? Why? What were you needing at the time?
ALAINE: Okay, I came in really right at the beginning because I had found some of your posts right before you formed Flying Free when you were writing some posts for a different website.
ALAINE: I read a couple of those and I knew right then that, “Oh my goodness. I’m not reading this kind of thing anywhere else.” I was thirsty for information at that point in my relationship. I was in the fog and the confusion. I was starting to wake up to the fact that things were very definitely not all right in my marriage, but I couldn’t totally explain what wasn’t right. I was turning to some other resources, more traditional marriage books and things out there on the shelf, and I was walking away with more shame, guilt, and confusion, honestly. When I read some of the things that you posted, it was fresh, clear water. That’s how I found it. That’s the biggest thing that drew me. I like to think things and know things first, and I tend to feel things later. So my brain was just thirsty for truth to help me sort out the confusion, basically.
NATALIE: When you first joined Flying Free, you were part of the very first group. I called you guys my “guinea pigs” because I didn’t know what I was doing. I was just flying by the seat of my pants. But you guys were so gracious. What was your first impression when you first joined?
ALAINE: When I first joined and it was the full deal, my first impression was that I was not alone, because I felt so isolated in my journey. A little like what Katya was saying, my church had kicked me out (in my case it’s my family) and turned their backs on me. They actually ended up siding with my ex. A lot of my friendships that I had formed throughout life and marriage were our “couple” friends. So I really ended up very much alone. I didn’t know anyone else going through what I was going through in the same way, so I couldn’t call or ask questions. All of a sudden in Flying Free, I wasn’t alone. There were so many stories, and I could really resonate with most of them. I could ask really honest questions and get honest, vulnerable answers. That was the biggest thing for me at first, that I wasn’t here by myself.
NATALIE: Right. Back then, I wasn’t charging $20. I was charging $15 since you guys were my guinea pigs. But did you feel like the program was worth that $15 a month fee?
ALAINE: Completely! Thinking about it from strictly a money perspective and the street value of the materials, if you were out buying books, coursework, and podcasts individually from all different sources, that adds up really quickly. Anyone who has been out there doing therapy and paying for individual sessions and coaching knows that you can get into hundreds of dollars really easily. This is an amazing value. Really amazing, especially with the different forms of media. There is something for everybody’s learning style and the way that they want to engage, which is perfect. So yes, it is worth everything.
NATALIE: Good. So you’ve been in this group for two full years now and you are still going strong. Why?
ALAINE: I am. I would say that the longer I was in it, the richer the online community experience became for me. At one point a few months in, I even toyed with the idea of quitting because I almost felt there was so much content offered that I almost felt overwhelmed. Because I’m one of those OCD-perfectionist-do-everything-right-and-in-order types of people, I wasn’t finishing the different course things. I thought “You know, maybe I’m just not able to take advantage of this right now.” (I learned differently because I approached it differently later.) The one thing that kept me in was the relationships and the community. Of course, as time went on and I took a deep breath and began to heal, I understood that I don’t have to finish everything. It’s all there. It’s like a buffet that’s open twenty-four hours, and I can come and eat what I want when I am hungry and then leave and come back for dessert later. It’s there to feed different needs at different times. All throughout, the community is the powerful thing that has kept me here.
NATALIE: That’s awesome! You’ve said such good things, I’m so glad. I love getting all your perspectives. Can I ask, because I am curious, what is your favorite way to learn?
ALAINE: Reading, probably. When I have the chance, when I can dig into content, I process things better that way. I do love listening, though, to the coffee chats. (I don’t know if I’m skipping ahead of things.) I can’t always be there for those, but I can listen while I’m doing something else. Like if I’m doing a task, I can have those playing. For me, the reading and processing of the written information is kind of my thing. It’s how I retain.
NATALIE: All right, thank you, Alaine. We’re going to come back to you in a little bit, but right now let’s bring on Julianna. Welcome to the Flying Free Podcast.
JULIANNA: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
NATALIE: Yeah. When did you join Flying Free and why? And what do you feel you needed most at the time?
JULIANNA: I joined in January. I had been reading some of your blog posts up until that point and had been with another person for about a year. I just couldn’t connect with that person. We can’t connect with everybody, and I just couldn’t connect with that person. I never had an individual conversation with them, but their situation wasn’t the same as mine. It wasn’t marriage based, and it just didn’t work for me.
NATALIE: You know what, let me just jump in here, because I think you hit on something and I really want to bring this out. You are right. We don’t always connect with everyone, and there are so many different advocates out there. They all have a different style, and they all have a different background and expertise that they bring to the table. That’s one of the reasons why I started doing these expert workshops and bringing in a different advocate each month. I thought “You know what, these people do not need to just hear from me.” You know how when you hear from the same person over and over again you start to almost be able to say what they are going to say next? I thought we need to bring in some other people, some fresh perspectives. Because I can’t talk that intelligently. I’m not a Bible scholar, so let’s bring in Jimmy Hinton. He’s a pastor. I’m not a psychologist, so let’s bring in Bob Hamp because he does that. He’s a counselor. So you were with this other person, and then you decided to try Flying Free. Why?
JULIANNA: Right. I didn’t feel like anyone understood where I was coming from. There was a whole lot of conversation in the other group that I was a part of about how to stay well. I felt like I was being beaten over the head with that. I did, personally. That doesn’t mean everybody feels that way. But I did, because I felt like I had spent twenty years trying to stay well and had really given everything for my marriage. We had moved a lot throughout our marriage, and I’ve lost count of the number of friends that I’ve lost when they found out what my husband’s battle was. I didn’t even know the depth of it. I genuinely didn’t know the depth of it until my children and I actually asked him to leave the three of us.
A lot of people don’t know what to do with us. They want to put us in the box of “Oh look, there’s another divorced mom who couldn’t make her marriage work.” They have no idea that it wasn’t like that. It wasn’t like that for us at all. It was three of us sitting down and saying, “You need to get help. You’ve got to go get help because we can’t live like this anymore. We are walking on eggshells all the time. We’re afraid all the time.” We would ask him, “Are you mad about something? Have we done something? Is there something we can do?” He would immediately scream, “I don’t know why you always ask if I’m mad about something!” I think that’s so funny now on this side of it. I thought “Well, you’re yelling, and you’re really acting like you’re mad.” So, I don’t know, I’m thinking we’re pretty dead on.
NATALIE: It was gaslighting, right?
JULIANNA: I know, exactly. I think for me, a big part of what has been helpful has been the resources that you’ve pointed us to. I love to learn, but when you’re in the middle of a storm you don’t have a lot of time to sit down and soak in tons of resources unless that’s your number one strength, learning, and that’s all you care about. That’s not my number one strength, so I’m not going to sit down and read hundreds of books when I’m just trying to keep the pieces together. That’s what was going on for me, so that’s been of real value to me because you’ve done that for us. You’ve read so many of those books and simplified so many of their messages for us and pointed us to different resources. I think one of the ones that has helped us the most… Patrick Doyle just nailed it on the head that the narcissist justifies, minimizes, rationalizes, gaslights, denies and lies. Here where I live, I live in a part of the country where in so many peoples’ minds, forgiveness means reconciliation. I love the Lord. I love the Lord with all of my heart, and I’d look anyone in the face and say, “If someone tells you ‘I love Jesus with everything that I am, but I’m just kind of tired of my husband. It’s just kind of not working. I’m going to get a divorce, and I think God’s okay with that,’” I’d say, “You and I need to sit down and have a talk because no, that is not justification for a divorce.”
But that’s not what we’re talking about. That’s not what any of the women in the group have experienced. It’s not like we got tired of how their feet smelled, so we decided we were done. That’s not it at all. It’s being abused. It’s being thrown up against the wall, thrown through the window, or things that are hard to even speak about, they hurt so bad. That’s been our reality, but still the best the church has for us is “Well, you must have a problem with forgiveness.” Nope, I don’t have a problem with forgiveness. I’ve been doing it for twenty years. I don’t have a problem with it. I keep getting an opportunity. I might be the best forgiver I know, because I just keep getting opportunity after opportunity after opportunity. It doesn’t mean that I’m signing back up. Someone said something to me recently, and it took all I could to say it graciously to this person. But I said, “Let me ask you a question, okay? If somebody breaks into your house and rapes your daughter in the middle of the night, and they go and spend six months or six years in jail, and then you hear that they are out on parole, are you going to have them over for Thanksgiving dinner because that’s the Christian thing to do? Because that’s what you’re asking me to do.”
JULIANNA: That is exactly what you are asking me to do.
NATALIE: They are asking you to sleep with this person.
JULIANNA: Yeah! We won’t go into all the things that this person has been accused of by other people because it would curl your hair. But yeah, I’m supposed to sleep with this person? I’m supposed to have this person around my children? I said “No!” The camaraderie… just to know other women… it stinks to say “the camaraderie.” On the one hand it’s wonderful, and on the other you say “Augh. I wish there wasn’t any. I wish nobody had to go through what I’ve had to go through, because that is just heartbreaking.” I know Katya said something about being in a place where she felt there was no hope, and I think we’ve all been there. I think that’s just the reality that we’ve all been there. Our abusers like to try to keep us there. Mine had the audacity to let me know that I couldn’t live without his money. I thought, “You know what, you aren’t my provider. You’ve never been my provider. The same God that made water come from a rock has been my provider, not you. Thank God He still works through donkeys that have been able to provide. But you haven’t been my provider. God is.”
I think it still doesn’t take away the fact that it’s gotten lonely at times, and it gets scary at times. To know that at any time we can get on the Facebook group and say, “Hey sisters, I need someone to pray for me right now…” We don’t even have to go into detail. Sometimes we can’t because it hurts too badly, or the details run too deep. For me, sometimes I don’t want to go into them all, because I think we are all living our own hell. Excuse my French, but we are. So I don’t want to go into the details, but just to say “Will you pray because it feels hopeless today?” Sometimes it has been that hard, but to know that we have this group and the truth and the resources, it has been phenomenal. I just can’t thank you enough. From the Butterfly stories and hearing the hope of other women to the countless resources that you’ve given us, I just can’t thank you enough.
NATALIE: You mentioned the Butterfly stories. Tell the listeners what the Butterfly stories are?
JULIANNA: Okay, the Butterfly stories come out once a month, and they are stories of other women who have gotten free. Their divorces are final, and they are free from their abusers. They’re called Butterfly stories because it really is like being in a cocoon, being very isolated and very much in a cocoon when you are in these abusive situations. When you get out of them, you get to blossom. That’s what I see in a lot of these women who have shared their Butterfly stories. They have blossomed, and that there is hope.
NATALIE: I’m going to bring Katya back on. Okay Katya, we’ve been talking about the different parts of Flying Free like the courses and the expert workshops. We’ve talked about the Butterfly stories and the Facebook group. Can you tell us a little bit about the Live Q&A’s? Have you had a chance to listen to any of those or participate in any of those?
KATYA: I have. I’ve actually been able to do those more than the coffee chats.
NATALIE: Okay, perfect.
KATYA: My kids are usually dropped off right during these sessions, these live events, so for the coffee chats, I can’t really be listening in or watching at the same time as I am getting them dinner and stuff. But the Q&A’s, I can call in and have one earbud in so I can still hear and still be available. I’m an auditory learner, completely auditory, so I love just listening. I love when someone asks a question and I’m like, “Oh, yeah. I definitely would have had that question if I had thought about it too.” To me, it’s a great way to get the content that needs clarification from some of the courses or just life stuff. You cover so much life stuff. I’ve asked some questions that sort of made me blush when I’ve asked them, “Can I say that?” Then you tackled them with such grace, and everyone interacting was like, “Oh, yes. We’ve been dying to ask that.” So to me, they’ve been a fantastic way to hear from you a little bit more personally. We hear from other people in expert workshops. But I really love the Q&A’s. I think I was surprised by how much I’ve gotten out of them and how much I’ve appreciated them.
NATALIE: Okay, thank you. This last weekend we got together with fifty of the women, and you were there. Well, I will just say, this woman read some beautiful poetry to our group, and it was a huge blessing to us. Why don’t you share a highlight from the weekend? What was it like for you to meet with all these people that you have talked to online but maybe haven’t seen face-to-face?
KATYA: You had shared these questions with us, so I’ve been thinking about it. Honestly, my highlight of the week was that there was zero small-talk. There was just no need for it. We just went straight to the good stuff. There was not “Oh, cute shoes. Where did you get that purse?” There was just none of that. Our ice breakers were, “So how long have you been out?” and “Have you lost your church yet?” (Not that everyone has lost their church.) But you got straight, real, deep intimacy with people, with friends, with community, and we got to skip over all the surface stuff. Not that it’s bad, but we had two days. I’m not going to waste forty-eight precious hours talking about shoes. So that was it for me. The last morning when we had really all gotten to know each other (I was actually traveling with Alaine, and I think we left three hours after we had planned to leave) and we were all sitting around the table and laughing and we had inside jokes by then, that, to me, was it. That’s why you do what you do.
NATALIE: That was awesome. That was so much fun.
KATYA: That was so life-giving to me.
NATALIE: It was great to meet all three of you gals there. It was absolutely phenomenal. It was a reset button for me. I have been feeling kind of depressed lately, just discouraged by all the bad stuff. Just being with all of you guys, I have not felt one bit depressed this week. My circumstances are exactly the same, but I just feel so much happier and more hopeful to see what God is doing.
KATYA: Yes, I’m so glad it was life-giving for you, too.
NATALIE: Oh, it was. So much so. Okay, we need to wrap up. So I’m going to get Alaine on here. But thank you so much, Katya, for joining us. Alaine, tell us about the coffee chats.
ALAINE: Yeah, I think I was present for one or two of them live, and then my daughter had a weekly thing on Sundays, which is when they usually are. I happened to be driving her during those times so I wasn’t able to come in live, but I was able to listen to them later. That’s the wonderful thing about them being archived on the site. You can come back and listen in. The coffee chats are neat because they’re very organic and dynamic. People are talking back and forth and sharing things. It’s like a live version of what we do when we post in the private group. So there’s a unique aspect to that. Also, when I did do it live, you don’t have to be on video if you don’t want to be. I think that’s important for shy people. When you have one of those days where you really don’t feel like being seen, you can still be heard. I like the flexibility with that. It’s a format for whatever mood you are in. I think that’s perfect because some weeks I think, “Yeah, I’m going to need the Kleenex, or I’m just going to sit here quietly and listen.” It’s very open to whatever you have to bring to it.
NATALIE: Lately, we’ve been picking subjects to shape our conversation around, which I’ve really enjoyed. I don’t know why I didn’t do that earlier. But knowing in advance what we’re going to be talking about, then everyone can come to the table with their ideas. In fact, last time we had two ideas to talk about and we spent the whole two hours on one.
ALAINE: I had not heard that. If that’s what resonates with people, they want to keep talking.
NATALIE: Right. Okay, so you were also at the retreat. I’m curious to know what impacted you the most. What did you enjoy about it?
ALAINE: I loved the vulnerability and intimacy and seeing people that I had only met online. There were several cases where it was like, “Oh my goodness, that’s you.” We could just hug and share at another level because we had heard each other’s stories for, in some cases, almost two years. There’s something special about seeing people in-person that is incredible. I love what Katya said about no wasted time on small talk and the ice breaker questions being, “So, how long have you been out?” I laughed so hard because it’s kind of true. We’re already at such a deep level that we just go there immediately.
We covered a lot of ground more so in talking than if we had just met, if that makes any sense, at a deeper level. I’ll say this too, that there were some people there who maybe hadn’t connected as much online at that point, and they just came to the retreat. There was still a safe and warm space for them too. We all came around each other and welcomed each other and met new people as well. I wouldn’t want anyone to leave with the impression that “Well, I don’t really know anyone, so why should I come?” Not true at all. Whatever level they have connected online, they will make lifetime friends if they come there. So it is open to anyone from Flying Free who can make it. It’s really good in that way.
NATALIE: I have to say, I was especially delighted to meet you because you’ve been in the group for two years, and you’ve not just been in the group on the sidelines. You’ve been really active, and behind the scenes you’ve written me emails. You’ve given me lots of feedback over the last couple of years, and I felt like I know you. But you don’t really know someone online, you know what I mean? Plus, the surprising thing (and you made a comment about this when I met you) was that your hair in your profile is dark and you had blonde hair. I was like, “Wait a minute? You’re Alaine?”
ALAINE: It was my secret identity and I didn’t even know it.
NATALIE: Yeah, it was so fun though. I love you to pieces. It was so much fun to meet you.
ALAINE: And everyone, yeah, it was very fun.
NATALIE: Well you guys, we have to wrap this up. I think it’s twice as long as it usually is, but this was a good session. I’m really thankful for you guys spending your time with me and with the listeners and sharing your experiences with Flying Free. For those of you listening, if you want to know more information, there’s actually a lot of details about this group on that page, that URL that I gave you at the beginning of the program. I’ll give it to you again, www.joinflyingfree.com. And if you don’t know what my regular website is, it’s just flyingfreenow.com. You can also go over there and get the first chapter of my book “Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage” for free. All you have to do is sign up for it at the top of my website, and I’ll send you a PDF copy of that first chapter. My blog has this podcast on it as well as other articles that will help you figure out what is going on with your confusing marriage and help you know how much Jesus loves you, because that’s the bottom line. We don’t know how much Jesus loves us when we feel like we are so rejected by one of the most intimate people in our lives. We’re going to end there. Thank you so much for joining us. Fly free!