In this episode, I sit down with my real-life friend Jessica, a pastor’s wife whose story intersects with mine: her husband was a pastor at the very church that excommunicated me. What started as a conversation about her story turned into one of the most layered, honest episodes I think we’ve ever recorded.

Jessica spent decades being told her emotions were idols, her feelings weren’t facts, and her needs were sin problems she needed to repent of. In this conversation, she shares what it took to finally see through that, what the long road out of a high-control religious marriage actually looks like, and why freedom sometimes takes many years to arrive even after the divorce papers are signed.