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How Understanding Your Personality Can Help You Get Unstuck in Your Life Part Two: Interview with Stacey Wynn on the Enneagram [Episode 227]

How Understanding Your Personality Can Help You Get Unstuck in Your Life Part Two: Interview with Stacey Wynn on the Enneagram

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Last week we explored the Myers-Briggs personality typology, and today we have a special guest, Stacey Wynn, talking with us about another personality typology: the Enneagram. Not only will the Enneagram inform you about who you are as a person and what motivates you, but it will also help point you toward where you can grow and develop.

No matter what you’ve heard about the Enneagram in the past, come along for an authentic conversation about the history of the Enneagram, its benefits, and how it can help you heal after abuse.

Key Points From This Episode:

  • The history of the Enneagram and why we don’t need to fear it. 
  • Why the Enneagram is anything but a box for our personalities (and how we can grow within our Enneagram type!)
  • How the Enneagram helped Stacey in her healing journey after her divorce. 
  • Why no one Enneagram type is more prone to finding themselves in an abusive situation than another type. 
  • How you can apply the Enneagram to your whole life — personal, professional, and spiritual.
  • What your next steps could be if you are interested in learning more about the Enneagram.

Related Resources:

Stacey Wynn is an ICF Certified Coach (PCC) who works in both corporate and private practice. As a survivor of a destructive marriage, Stacey understands that one major hurdle we must jump over is re-engaging with who we are— with authenticity. The iEQ9 (Enneagram framework) assessment helps us build the vocabulary around our personal development, which starts with self-awareness. The iEQ9 provides a growth path for development that is helpful as each of us builds our unique path forward.

Stacey brings 25 years of experience with Fortune 500 business operations leadership and 10+ years of private coaching expertise. As a coach and consultant, Stacey is known for bringing clarity to complex situations. She asks thought-provoking questions, maintains a calming presence, builds trust, and encourages authenticity and reflection. Stacey uses knowledge-based coaching techniques and is an expert resource for faith deconstruction work. Her published workbook, Deconstruction: Your Journey in Faith, is available on Amazon.

Certifications include: Hogan Assessments, iEQ9/Enneagram, MBTI® (Myers-Briggs), Change Style Indicator® (CSI)

Suscribe to the Flying Free Podcast

Hi. This is Natalie Hoffman of, and you’re listening to the Flying Free Podcast, a support resource for women of faith looking for hope and healing from hidden emotional and spiritual abuse.

NATALIE: Welcome to Episode 227 of the Flying Free Podcast. Today is part two of a little mini-series on personality and how we can use the unique way that God created each of us to our advantage to help us to get unstuck and move forward in life. And last week we heard from my friend Becky — she talked about the Myers-Briggs — and this week we’re going to be hearing from my friend Stacey Wynn, who is a professional certified coach and consultant with numerous professional trainings and degrees, all of which I will put in the show notes, including certification in the iEQ9 Enneagram for Professionals. And this is why I wanted to bring her on today so that she can talk to us about the Enneagram as it relates to being someone dealing with emotional abuse and trying to recover and move forward in life. So welcome, Stacey. 

STACEY: Thanks, Natalie. It’s always a joy to be here with you, and being able to talk about this particular topic is wonderful. I think very helpful to the women in our community. 

NATALIE: Yes, I believe so too. I meant to write down and verbally say which episodes you’ve already been on the Flying Free Podcast, and I forgot to do that. But for those of you listening, I will make sure to link to all past… I think you’ve been on here a couple of times in the past

STACEY: Yes, definitely. 

NATALIE: So I will link to past episodes with Stacey so that if you liked what she shared today and you want to hear more from her… Plus she’s got a whole website and lots of resources of her own that we will also link to at the end. Okay, so first of all, for people who don’t… I mean, I think most of us have probably heard about Enneagram, but some people might not know exactly what it is. Some people might actually be scared of it. Can you tell us a little bit about the Enneagram and how and why you got into studying this for yourself? Because I know you are also trained in Myers-Briggs. 

STACEY: I am. 

NATALIE: So just tell us all the things. 

STACEY: Sure, sure. Well, I’ll tell you a little bit first about the Enneagram and then I’ll share more about why I use it as a coach. It is a century’s old framework and it is becoming even more relevant today. So it has just continued to demonstrate its relevance throughout history. The word itself, the word “enneagram,” is a Greek word, and “ennea” means “nine,” and “gram” means “drawn.” So it’s a drawn framework of nine archetypes. And I’ll just pause real quick because I think what I’ve heard in terms of kind of fear of the Enneagram is the way that the shape looks, and it’s very specific to the shape. And I hear that, “Well, it looks like a pentagram.” It actually does not look like a pentagram, and it is nine and not… So what I hope to do is calm the nerves around that particular issue and just ask for listeners to be a little bit curious as we have this conversation and see if we can find some relevance and common ground here.

So the drawn framework of the Enneagram points to nine archetypes, and that just simply means that we have nine ways of viewing the world. And over the past century, there have been lots of experts, including psychologists and researchers and even organizational development practitioners, who have also taken their independent work and looked at it with the Enneagram and kind of merged it. So the Enneagram continues to develop with modern research. And globally it’s used today… You might be surprised to hear it’s used in corporate and academic, secular, and private settings. It’s been used in really large organizations, including NASA, Google, Microsoft, Proctor and Gamble, and others. So it is very sought after as a tool in some very large organizations. 

My experience with Enneagram began two years ago, and one of my friends who really shares my passion for personality assessments, she, at the time, was very much into Enneagram, and I took it because of her, and I wanted to see how it impacted me. I like to try things out on myself first before I try things out on others. But it affirmed what I knew about myself, but it also made me realize that there were some areas that I needed to do some self-work. And I saw such a relevance in my life at the time. 

What I really resonated with is what a lot of people say about the Enneagram. It’s called a map for understanding human behavior, and I could totally see the map. Unlike tools like the Myers-Briggs and DISC… And I love all the things. I have been certified in Myers-Brigg since 2016. But the Enneagram digs a little bit deeper and provides insight into motivation that underlies choices and our behaviors. It provides a really holistic picture that incorporates three centers of intelligence: our thoughts and our feelings and also our actions or our intuition. And all of these centers of intelligence are shown in a very interconnected framework. 

So we each have our type, but the Enneagram isn’t boxing us into a type. It shows us really how to get out of that type, so how we grow and stretch, and it accounts for how we choose our behaviors in periods of health and in periods of stress and periods of security. How that looks from an Enneagram perspective is really impactful. But ultimately what I hope listeners hear is it’s a tool for self-awareness.

And one of the most sought-after corporate trainings right now for employees is on emotional intelligence. And emotional intelligence is what gives us the capacity for relationship and creating a sense of belonging. And that self-awareness is so crucial to having compassion for ourselves and also for others. So you see not only with the Enneagram, you see not only who you are, but you see why you do what you do. And that integrated look of thinking, feeling, and doing helps us to work in a very holistic and natural way. And it helps us to be better selves, our authentic selves, and also to grow in compassion for others.

NATALIE: I’m curious — is it possible to look at your Enneagram number, where you’re at today, and in ten years from now, evolve in a way that your Enneagram number actually changes? Or can you even target, like, a way that you want to change your number?

STACEY: Well, you’re not going into it to change your number because you are who you are and you take the test with your whole life in mind. And what’s interesting is I work with women who are coming out of similar situations that we did — destructive marriages. What I find is sometimes that women will identify with their type in stress and have to kind of reconnect with who they are outside of stress. And the Enneagram provides that framework so we can tell what our behaviors look like when we’re in stress, and that helps lead us back to where we want to be in health. 

So over time what will happen is as we stretch and grow and become more compassionate, we kind of lose that box that we’re in and we start to grow and be rather dynamic, and we can make choices that kind of flow and are outside of the rigidity of our type. And so in a way, over time, I think that you do — you will see that maybe you don’t fall into some of the same patterns that you used to, and that’s the result of your self-work. 

NATALIE: That’s interesting and practical too because if you are looking for evidence that you’re changing or that you’re growing in a certain area, I can imagine that you’d see some of those… You’d be able to actually evaluate and almost even measure, like, “I’m showing up in this way more now since I,” say, for example, “since I separated out of that relationship, whereas back when I was in the relationship, I was showing up more in this way.” Still the same person, just different strategies for life based on your circumstances. 

STACEY: Right. 

NATALIE: Okay, let’s get a little bit personal. How has knowing your Enneagram number specifically helped you move forward in your own life and even in your career? Because I know you are very career-oriented and you’ve pursued your higher education opportunities. So tell us about that. 

STACEY: Sure, sure. I began using personality assessments in the late nineties. Myers-Briggs was the one that I was really drawn and attracted to at the time. And I used that throughout my career for my own teams and really valued how it helped to bring teams together. So in my career, personality assessments were key when I was an operations leader. As I’ve moved into the coaching and development and talent management phase of my career, I work with a company — we call ourselves “assessment agnostics.” So we use a lot of assessments, and companies out there and organizations use a lot of assessments for different reasons. So I’m certified in a number at this point. 

And at the time of my divorce, I was very familiar with personality assessments. The Myers-Briggs was not something that helped me get through the challenges that I had when I was going through my divorce. And I kind of have this image in my head of myself and I’ve had these words in my head for a long time — two words that sound the same but are different: pieces and peace. And I found that I started really thinking of myself as being in pieces when I was going through my divorce because not only was I going through that transition, but I also was in the midst of a career transition, was just getting into my deconstruction journey, my faith transition. So all of those things were happening. 

When I found the Enneagram I was starting to date again, and all of these things were in flux, and I felt like they were all just different pieces of me, and it was hard to see how they were all going to fit together. I didn’t even quite know what image I was trying to get to. So that’s when I entered into this Enneagram world, and what it’s helped me do is see that underlying motivation and how to pull in these pieces to make the picture. I can see the picture, I can see what I’m looking at, where I’m going. It’s quite fascinating, and it’s allowed me with the help of working with my own coach, like, how do I integrate these pieces and how do they come together? What’s the importance of my motivation and the freedom that I have in choosing when I’m feeling tension? Is it good tension? Is it bad tension? Is it something I need to sit in? Something I need to really pay attention to?

So these are all things that have helped, and as I work with clients both in my corporate world and private world, I see the same level of self-awareness and this “Aha!” moment that helps clients determine, “Why am I drawn to this kind of work? How do I better leverage my strengths and my skills? What does it mean when I feel uncomfortable about speaking at a corporate event or something like that?” All of these little ancillary things that go on in people’s careers and in their lives are very well-informed by the Enneagram.

I wouldn’t say it’s going to solve all your questions, but it’s a huge tool and it helps us make better choices. And when we start to get to know who we really are, ourselves authentically, we stop trying to compare ourselves to other people, and we figure out, “These are the goals that I want to pursue,” then it really helps us kind of face the future in a healthier way and grow in compassion for ourselves and for others. 

NATALIE: I love that. I just have to say, from what I know of you, Stacey, at the beginning when you said you were thinking in terms of “pieces” versus “peace,” you epitomized, to me, anyway, a whole person that is full of peace. That’s how you come across — that’s the aura that you exhibit. 

STACEY: Sweet. Thank you.

NATALIE: I guess I didn’t really know you back when you were in pieces, but. 

STACEY: You did — you helped me. You helped me back then. 

NATALIE: Well, I have a bad memory, but you definitely… I can’t imagine you like that anymore because you’re just such an incredible human being, and I really do see you as being whole. In the Flying Free program, we sort of affectionately refer to Stacey as our “pastor,” — she does have her divinity degree, so. 

STACEY: Thank you. Well, let me tell you a little bit about what I learned about myself if that’s helpful. 

NATALIE: Yes. Well, that’s what we were going to go into next. Well, actually, no — actually I had another question, but no, let’s stay on this topic first before we move forward. 

STACEY: Okay. So I’m a type eight, and my underlying motivation is to be strong and to avoid feeling vulnerable. So I tend to be very direct in my style and I bring a lot of energy with me into the spaces where I go, and sometimes that can be seen as very intimidating to others or even aggressive. So it’s interesting that you use the word “calm,” and I think once people get to know me, that is who I am. But there’s this level of intensity that I don’t even recognize for myself. But I value strength, I value truth and justice. My preference is to be very decisive and quick. I like to move forward and make decisions, and I’m very future-oriented. I like control. I want to remain in control. I’m hesitant to give that control over to others. This is all part of my motivation and it’s all very apparent in the Enneagram work that I’ve done. 

But what people don’t see about me externally is that I have a very soft and vulnerable side, and that’s not something that I let many people see. I know in experience that I’ve had just as a corporate leader that I lead well when I do let people see that side of me. And I am able to tap into my vulnerability and show my emotions more and build connections with others. So it’s more than just getting the work done — it’s also connecting with people. The Enneagram tells me that too. If I’m going to grow as a type eight, these are things that I need to do. And as I take it now and look back in my career, I see, yeah — I had to overcome that hurdle, and I see that as a necessity and it makes sense to me. But that is part of my growth path. 

And what I learned about myself — and you were part of this, you just didn’t know it — is at the time I started really working with a coach on the Enneagram, you were also encouraging us to build dating profiles and date. So dating, as you know, it definitely makes us feel kind of vulnerable, and it’s an uncomfortable situation. So when I feel that way, what I want to do is make a decision and move out of it: “Oh, this is really too much to deal with. I’m just going to do something else. I’m going to shut that door and keep moving forward.” Well, with the Enneagram, I challenge myself to sit in that tension and ask myself, “Why am I wanting to move out of this tension and this unknown? Yeah, you can’t control it, but is this something that you want to explore? And what are you going to gain from sitting in this place?” So the Enneagram really is helping me… My mantra is “Try to remain in the present.” Stay in the present. Don’t let yourself decide yourself away from an opportunity that you’re going to regret it if you do that. You might regret what you’re going to experience.”

So that’s one of my huge takeaways that I have is that although my partner — I’ve been dating him now for almost two years, and we’re very different — but the work that we both do and the vocabulary of the Enneagram helps us to express ourselves and put words around some of the differences that we have, and it’s been an incredible tool to encourage me to get out of my comfort zone.

NATALIE: That’s awesome. I just love your story. It’s been so much fun to watch you blossom, and when you were talking about how you could be intimidating to people, do you feel like you’ve grown in that as far as not intimidating… Because you don’t intimidate people in our program at all.

STACEY: No, I don’t. I think it’s really funny how I do still hear that periodically, and I usually don’t hear it at the time someone meets me, but it’s afterward. And they say, “You know, when I first met you, I wasn’t quite sure, but now, gosh, I just am so…” You know, that kind of a thing. And growing up, the earliest I remember someone using the word “intimidating” is seventh grade. This is a word that I have heard my whole life, and it always leaves me very perplexed. And wouldn’t you know it, in the Enneagram type eight description it says, “Others can find you intimidating and you’ll hear the word ‘intimidating’ throughout your life.” And I thought, “Oh my gosh.” 

NATALIE: I think it’s because you definitely exude a leadership quality, and a lot of people that are not that type of person might be intimidated by that just because you’re a leader, you know? I’m a leader too, but I do get intimidated by other leaders. I’ll step down if there’s another. If there are two leaders in the room, I’ll be like, “You can have the platform. I will just sit over to the side.” I think, on the other hand, what you bring… Because you do bring that leadership quality when you’re interacting with people in our program, but it’s also kind of like a motherly or fatherly space. How would you describe it? It’s leadership, but loving leadership. Leadership that just loves and wants to build people up and wants to set them free and give them all the tools that they need to just fly the way that they were meant to fly. That’s what I feel like you bring.

And also probably that vulnerable spot that you were talking about, that’s where I think you can relate to people. I mean, I think there are some leaders who, they just are there to control and lead and they can’t really connect with the hearts of other people, maybe because they’re disconnected with their own vulnerability, but you are not. So you have also that loving connection, too. 

STACEY: Thank you so much. 

NATALIE: Okay, so what are some ways that you perceive people getting stuck in dysfunctional relationships and environments because of maybe their… Are there Enneagram numbers that maybe are more prone to… We talked about this last week too, but. Anyone can fall into an abusive relationship, but I’m wondering if there are specific Enneagram numbers that might be more prone to staying in the relationship just because of maybe the way their personality is, and how can they use the knowledge of their personality or the knowledge of their number to get the strength that they need to leave if they want to do that?

STACEY: Yeah, it’s such a good question. And I know as I was navigating my own divorce… And at the time I didn’t know about the Enneagram, but I knew about Myers-Briggs and had used it with a lot of success professionally. And I did try to kind of tap into that because I heard a podcast by someone that was saying, “Statistically we think this type of personality is…” And I just don’t see that. I don’t see that there’s a particular personality that gets drawn into or gets stuck in relationships. I really think that when you think in terms of the Enneagram framework, each type has levels of health. And we’re at our best when we’re choosing average or healthy options for ourselves. And when we kind of are at a low point and a low self-mastery of our personality, then we might be making decisions for the wrong reasons and trying to get our motivation filled in ways that aren’t helpful. 

Maybe I can tell you, for me looking back, I think that need that I had to control… And I like to control an outcome and I have that fear of being controlled and not being able to control something. And I can see that point in time, I remember where I was standing in the room when I had the realization that I couldn’t control the outcome of my marriage. It was not mine to control, and I needed to lay that burden that I had placed on myself down. And it was a visceral feeling that I had just to release the control for me as a type eight. I look back now and think, “Wow, that was a big growth moment.”

And those are the types of things that I think we learn when we have that self-awareness and coaching and therapy using these tools. It helps us see where we personally are stuck. I think that we, when we are in a place of unhealth or we are not being authentic to ourselves, we’re living in a facade, what happens is we are prioritizing others over ourselves and we are prioritizing other things over our own self-development and our own needs, and we also potentially see ourselves through the eyes of our dysfunctional partner. There’s no truth in that. 

So I think that what I know now in working with women now with the Enneagram, one of the benefits is it gives us insight and helps us to separate, “This is me and this is who I am, and this is not truth and this is truth, and these are the areas that I have to work on and these are the areas that are outside of my control,” and then seeing clearly choices that can be made in alignment that may or may not exist. And I think that’s the power of that, using those tools for transformation. You speak of butterflies. I think it’s the perfect symbol for our group, and it’s the same type of thing for me. I see myself — I was in pieces, and I can now start seeing how the pieces fit together. It’s that transformative growth that allows us holistically to become a new creation. 

NATALIE: Yeah. Okay, so can you… I don’t even know if you can give an example of this. You gave the example in your own life, but I’m wondering if, like, let’s say that I go out and I take a test and I find out what my number is. I think I’m a one. I haven’t really studied this a whole lot, but I think I’m a one. How do we work with our personality type to recognize how we might even be sabotaging ourselves and instead use our personality type, our knowledge of it, to actually propel us forward? 

STACEY: Yeah, there are so many resources out there. So you can definitely get started with, you know, there are lots of online tests and lots of books, lots of resources, videos, all of that. Instagram accounts — there’s a ton of stuff out there. But working with someone who’s knowledgeable about the framework, working and taking an assessment that is more validated than just a regular online kind of an assessment, is helpful. 

NATALIE: Right. Do you have one that you recommend?

STACEY: Yeah, so at the time of this recording, I’m wrapping up my certification with iEQ9, which is an excellent tool, and that’s one that we’ll talk about in a minute. I’m sure I’ll talk about what’s available for coaching. I love that tool. There’s another one that I’ve used as well called The Compass, and when you receive a professional report like that, you see the levels of health very well designated. “So as a one, here’s what I look like when I’m in low self-mastery, here’s what I look like when I’m an average, and here’s what I look like when I’m in high.” And you can start to make choices, you know, “This is a decision I can make. I can handle it this way, or I can try to stretch and grow beyond what I normally do.” So you see very clearly, which is what I love about the Enneagram, is it provides a framework for growth.

So it’s not like you get a color or you get a type and that’s it. You get your type, but you also see the dynamic growth that’s possible within the framework. It’s something, too, that shows up in your life in many ways. So it’s something you can apply to your personal relationships, professional relationships, to your spiritual growth as well. So it’s very holistic, and when I worked with a client just this morning and heard her, although it was in a professional setting, she was applying it to her personal life, and she could see examples from her past with her kids, with her spouse, at work, and in her faith community — it was all coming together for her. And I think that’s where you can make shifts that impact your whole life and your future. 

NATALIE: Okay, so tell us what some of your favorite resources are so that people can… I mean, they can come to you — maybe we should start there. They can come to you and take that test, correct, through you. And then do you offer a coaching thing after that so they can download what’s going on… You know? 

STACEY: Yes, so I have a session that’s an hour and a half session that comes with the assessment. And so when you go to my site, you would take the assessment, so you’ll purchase that package. I’ll send the assessment to you, and then we’ll schedule the follow-up like, a week later to allow you time to take a look at your report and really think about what you want to discuss with me — like where do you want this coaching session to go? And then during our debrief session, it’s an hour and a half, so it’s ample time to work through the report and really earmark an action plan for you. “How are some areas that I want to shift and grow?” 

It’s a tool too that you can take after the debrief — you can take it into further coaching sessions or even into therapy appointments. Many therapists are Enneagram trained and Enneagram knowledgeable, and it ports very well there. I know that because my therapist helps me with my Enneagram too. 

NATALIE: Oh, fascinating.

STACEY: Yeah, so it’s work that we can continue on in therapy and in coaching. I do have some favorite references, and I have a one-pager that will link to the show notes. It offers podcasts, YouTubes with panels of different types that are really helpful, some books specific for corporate leadership as well as just personal resources, and spiritual growth resources. So depending on what you’re looking for, there are a variety of books and resources that I personally use and love.

NATALIE: Is that your Linktree link


NATALIE: Okay. All right — I wanted to make sure, because there’s a few links here. Another thing that I noticed is that there’s a 10% off of an Enneagram debrief and coaching session with you, correct? 

STACEY: Yes, just for this podcast. So you can use the code FLYFREE and get a discount on that debrief session. 

NATALIE: Okay. And I will include that direct link to that if anyone wants to do that with Stacey. Also, you have a workbook and you’re going to actually introduce this. Well, you have already introduced it, I guess, in one program, but you’re going to introduce it to the other one tomorrow, actually, at the time of this recording. This is not going to come out for a couple months, but. So Stacey wrote a workbook called “Deconstruction: Your Journey in Faith.” Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that? 

STACEY: Yeah, so the deconstruction world, there are many different approaches, and I have respect for all of them. All of us have a very unique journey, and many of us find ourselves on that journey as we go through divorce. When we’ve been in evangelical circles, our faith is impacted — our belief, our thoughts about who God is, all of those things are impacted when we go through a divorce, and for me, I did not feel like I needed to leave Christianity per se, but I did realize that the church was not a helpful and a healthy place for me to be.

So deconstruction for me was… And what I call it is a process by which you deconstruct all of the add-ons over the course of like, my lifetime. I started out with a childlike faith and I added on this and I added on that and this tradition and that practice and this thought and this belief, and then here I am where I realized that that’s not… Like, I’m far away from my faith. I’ve added on things that no longer make sense to me. So deconstruction is the process of evaluating our faith and our traditions and figuring out what works together and what no longer serves us. So I think deconstruction is spiritual formation, and I think it’s something we continue to do throughout the course of our lives. 

If you think about how we separate ourselves from God — God never separates God’s Self from us — but we do a lot where we… Things get in the way and we’re constantly having to pull those things out in order to reprioritize our relationship with God. 

NATALIE: I totally agree. I even think that Christians who would never want to touch that word “deconstruction,” even they do it because we’re all changing our minds about things at different times in our lives, right? It’s almost like when you were describing that like, “We add this on and we add this on,” I’m imagining… You know “Pilgrim’s Progress”? I’m imagining that pack on his back and just putting thing after thing in that pack.

STACEY: And that’s the metaphor — the picture in the book is camping and journeying, and one chapter is “take your backpack off and see what you want to keep in it and what you’re ready to lay down.” 

NATALIE: Yes. And if it helps to think of it as laying it down at the cross like Pilgrim did, then think of it that way. It’s leaving those religious burdens at the cross of Christ because we don’t have to have those. We can run and skip and jump and be free of all of that if we want to. And I’m with you. I’ve deconstructed too, but I have not left Christianity. I feel like my faith is stronger and more solid and more, like, condensed — or what’s the word? Like laser-focused, maybe. It’s just simpler, I guess. And I love it. I love it so much more. 

STACEY: It’s a space that I really love being in, Natalie, on your forum and just out in the world because it’s such a bittersweet spot. And there are lots of women who can’t attend worship, can’t listen to worship music, can’t even open their Bibles. And that’s all fine. None of that separates us from God’s love. 

NATALIE: That’s right.

STACEY: But finding that connection inside and being okay to have our own way of connecting and being able to separate ourselves from that traditional community then really no longer serves us — it’s a powerful place. 

NATALIE: Yes. So your workbook will help walk people through. You can do it on your own, and once in a while you do small groups, don’t you? 

STACEY: I do, I do. And yeah, I’m working on a new workbook now. 

NATALIE: Okay. What’s it called? Can you say anything about it?

STACEY: I can say a little bit about it, but it’s very specific to women who are going through divorce, who are faithful in going through divorce or considering divorce or maybe are helping a friend, helping minister to a friend who’s on that path.

NATALIE: Oh, amazing. 

STACEY: So it’s another workbook style that helps us dig into scripture and see why it’s okay. 

NATALIE: I love that. So what you should probably do if you’re listening to this, you should probably follow Stacey on Instagram, I’m guessing, if they want to get announcements, if you’re going to do a group or whatever.

STACEY: Yeah, yep. 

NATALIE: And we’ll make sure to put that link… Actually, was it Instagram or was it something else? 

STACEY: So I have a website and you can get on my website mailing list. You can sign up for the waiting list for a cohort for the deconstruction workbook study, the study group I do. And I lead every Sunday night. Most Sunday nights you’ll find me on Zoom with a group of people, women, a lot of whom come or have been in the community before. 

NATALIE: And people can just come? Anyone can come?

STACEY: Mmhmm.

NATALIE: Oh, that’s amazing. Okay, so is your website in the Linktree, or should I put that separately? 

STACEY: It is, and it’s called, but it is on the Linktree. 

NATALIE: Okay, so when you get the Linktree link on the show notes, if you click into there, that will take you to all the things, and I’m sure you have it all laid out nice and clear. 

STACEY: Yes, yes. 

NATALIE: Her website is Clarity Unleashed, so she’s very clear. 

STACEY: Absolutely. 

NATALIE: That’s a core value for Stacey. 

STACEY: It is, it is. All about the clarity. I mean, you just don’t want clarity, but you do want to be unleashed. You want to be free to take clarity and do something. I think that we have to remember that faith, first of all, faith has nothing to do with being certain. Faith is what we have when we’re in uncertainty. Have faith, but faith has to have feet. We’ve got to move. We have to unleash ourselves. And self-awareness through tools like Myers-Briggs and tools like the Enneagram help us to take our authentic self and take that out and unleash it on the world.

NATALIE: Oh, I love that. What a great vision. It’s true. To say that you have a certain faith, “My faith is certain,” that’s like, what is that word for “opposites”? What’s the word I’m looking for? 

STACEY: It’s “opposite.”

NATALIE: “Opposite”? There’s like another word in my brain. I swear I’m losing my words. I think I’m getting Alzheimer’s or something. I feel like I’m losing my words — you know, when I can find the simple word, but the educational word for things, I can’t find them anymore. 

STACEY: You’ll find it about a minute after we get off of here.

NATALIE: Exactly, exactly. Well, I think that’s a wrap for this one. I am really grateful for your time, Stacey. Thanks for sharing about the Enneagram. People have a good jumping-off place now to go do their own research, and Stacey will catch you if you want to jump over into her world. She’s got all the things to catch you with. Thanks again, Stacey. And for those of you who don’t know, Stacey’s actually a coach inside of Flying Free. So people who are members of Flying Free get to interact with her every day if they want to in the forum. She’s on there offering advice on… Well, she’s got so much training. She offers advice on career development, job searching, you’re in the sex space. She’ll talk about sex, she’ll talk about your spiritual… She’s got a Masters of Divinity… What do you have in…?

STACEY: Masters of Divinity. 

NATALIE: Yeah, Masters of Divinity. So she can talk to you about pretty much anything in the forum, and she’s a coach and she’s an extremely helpful resource, one of many that’s inside Flying Free. So as soon as you join, you can access her over there too. And once in a while she’ll actually come in and teach a class or she’ll do group coaching with us. So thank you so much for listening, those of you guys who are here, and until next time, fly free.

Hey, beautiful butterfly. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe, and then consider leaving a rating and review so others can find us. To connect with me and get a free chapter of my book, head over to, and until next time, fly free.

"Dear Natalie and Becky: Thank you for Episode 226. Briefly, I grew up in Port-au-Prince, Haiti before moving to the American South in the 90s. There, I experienced various forms of abuse due to my phenotype/pigmentation, and also suffered abuse at home from both parental units. To this day, it seems like I’m meant to endure abuse until I’m no longer on this planet, although the Flying Free Podcast has been challenging my thoughts on this topic since I subscribed a couple of months ago. And aside from the generous and compassionate insight Hoffman offers, what I most love about this podcast are the topics being featured that I would never imagine related to abuse or trauma, such as Episode 226, which touches on the Myers-Briggs (MB) test. I’ve taken several personality (and vocational) assessments in my thirties, and when it came to the MB test, I was deemed an ENTJ, which I learned was a rare code for humans. In listening to Becky's analysis of ENTJs, quite a few of my past and current realities began making sense, such as being vilified for my intellect, especially when it comes to my unorthodox views on two controversial topics that plague America’s foundational DNA. Being the writer that I am, I could write a dissertation on why I love this podcast and this particular episode. However, I will spare your eyeballs. TL;DR: If you’ve endured abuse or are currently experiencing abuse, you will not regret subscribing to this podcast, as it will inject insight and confidence that will remind you that you are the Creator’s creation, and as such, you do not deserve – and have never deserved – the abuse executed on you in childhood and/or adulthood."
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An online coaching, education, and support community for women of faith in destructive relationships.

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